Discussion:
Vegetarian washing up
(too old to reply)
Steve Smith
2006-05-29 08:57:21 UTC
Permalink
At a District Explorer camp this weekend, I was supervising washing up
after a particuarly messy meal (spag bol for 25 people), and one of the
girls whose turn it was to wash up refused to touch anything that had
had meat on it (i.e. pretty much everything) on the grounds that she
was a vegetarian.

I didn't force the issue this time since she wasn't in my unit and I
didn't know her very well. However, what do you think? Is this a
reasonable excuse? What would you have done about it?

Steve.
Roger Woods
2006-05-29 09:10:39 UTC
Permalink
On 29 May 2006 01:57:21 -0700, "Steve Smith"
Post by Steve Smith
At a District Explorer camp this weekend, I was supervising washing up
after a particuarly messy meal (spag bol for 25 people), and one of the
girls whose turn it was to wash up refused to touch anything that had
had meat on it (i.e. pretty much everything) on the grounds that she
was a vegetarian.
I didn't force the issue this time since she wasn't in my unit and I
didn't know her very well. However, what do you think? Is this a
reasonable excuse? What would you have done about it?
Steve.
Given her a pair of rubber gloves or found her an alternative
(Possiblly more onerous job).

Difficult call could be genuine or just putting it on.

Roger-uk
CSL
Paul Harris
2006-05-29 09:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Woods
On 29 May 2006 01:57:21 -0700, "Steve Smith"
Post by Steve Smith
At a District Explorer camp this weekend, I was supervising washing up
after a particuarly messy meal (spag bol for 25 people), and one of the
girls whose turn it was to wash up refused to touch anything that had
had meat on it (i.e. pretty much everything) on the grounds that she
was a vegetarian.
I didn't force the issue this time since she wasn't in my unit and I
didn't know her very well. However, what do you think? Is this a
reasonable excuse? What would you have done about it?
Given her a pair of rubber gloves or found her an alternative
(Possiblly more onerous job).
Difficult call could be genuine or just putting it on.
I would go with the alternative job as she could be genuine and there
are always plenty of other things that need doing.
--
Paul Harris
Pete Jeffreys
2006-05-29 10:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Smith
At a District Explorer camp this weekend, I was supervising washing up
after a particuarly messy meal (spag bol for 25 people), and one of the
girls whose turn it was to wash up refused to touch anything that had
had meat on it (i.e. pretty much everything) on the grounds that she
was a vegetarian.
I didn't force the issue this time since she wasn't in my unit and I
didn't know her very well. However, what do you think? Is this a
reasonable excuse? What would you have done about it?
Steve.
A vegetarian friend of mine is living with us at the moment and she
refuses to touch anything that's had meat on it without wearing a pair
of marigolds. So I bought her a pair of marigolds and told her to earn
her rent!

I wonder how careful we all are when cooking veggie stuff on camp?
Before my friend lived with us I hadn't thought into the knock-on
effects of using the same tongs, BBQ grills, etc.

As an aside - National Vegetarian Week ended yesterday and I survived
without meat for a full seven days! As much as I enjoyed the food and
the challenge, I took great pride in my bacon buttie this morning...

Pete
back_ache
2006-05-29 10:31:27 UTC
Permalink
FWIW I'm a veggie and couldn't give monkeys about washing up plates
that have had meat on them it's not like you're not asking them to eat
or wear it.

All I ask is you don't bring what I'm going to eat in contact with
anything that has touched meat.

That said they're young and still working out what they think about
things and lumping it all under the "disgusting" category.
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-05-29 13:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Smith
I didn't force the issue this time since she wasn't in my unit and I
didn't know her very well. However, what do you think? Is this a
reasonable excuse? What would you have done about it?
Same as you.

I have two female Veggies, one is so laid back that getting her to actually
wash up is a major achievement, the other is a vegan doesn't have a problem
helping out although I can't remember her actually washing up meat pans.

Mind you I have given up trying to fathom up how the minds of female
Explorer Scouts work, they are like a combination of my wife's handbag and 7
days of neighbours all thrown together in a tumble drier for a week.

I have given up trying to track who fancies who and who isn't talking to
who... I have already told them I need a bloody wall chart.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
James5pb
2006-05-29 13:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Recently at Summer Camps my troop has had 2 vegans who make it very
hard for the menu to be planned and as a result very little meat gets
placed on the menu. Our Quatermaster who is notoriously moody, nearly
had a baby when he found out that he had to cater for vegans let alone
the budget adjustments he had to make.

The cost of the special milk and cheese , which incidently tastes like
a rubber insole was placed upon every body, although just a few pounds
each it seemed rather rude for them not to purchase their own 'food'
(if you can call it food).

Going back to the topic in hand, my approach would be no washing up, no
food (we always have a pair of marigolds ready for excuses like - 'my
cut will get infected', 'my hands are sensitive' e.t.c) and they get a
lot of stick for wearing pink marigolds from all the other scouts.

Everyone has got to pull together regardless of hangups

James
Allan Yates
2006-05-29 13:35:17 UTC
Permalink
We're not politically correct, we don't cater to any tastes at our
camps. If they don't like the main course, there are always
apples/oranges/vegatable/bread/jam/etc around for them to eat. They
won't starve to death in one weekend.

We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)

We had chilli one camp, and a number of kids claimed they didn't like
chilli. So don't eat it we said, no skin off our back. They all decided
to try it, and then said it was great!

Too many parents we find cater to the fussy tastes of their kids. We
grew up on the 'you eat whats put in front of you' philosophy.

I think this is just another way in which Scouting can make better
people of the kids in the program.


Allan.
Post by James5pb
Recently at Summer Camps my troop has had 2 vegans who make it very
hard for the menu to be planned and as a result very little meat gets
placed on the menu. Our Quatermaster who is notoriously moody, nearly
had a baby when he found out that he had to cater for vegans let alone
the budget adjustments he had to make.
The cost of the special milk and cheese , which incidently tastes like
a rubber insole was placed upon every body, although just a few pounds
each it seemed rather rude for them not to purchase their own 'food'
(if you can call it food).
Going back to the topic in hand, my approach would be no washing up, no
food (we always have a pair of marigolds ready for excuses like - 'my
cut will get infected', 'my hands are sensitive' e.t.c) and they get a
lot of stick for wearing pink marigolds from all the other scouts.
Everyone has got to pull together regardless of hangups
James
Steve Smith
2006-05-29 14:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allan Yates
Too many parents we find cater to the fussy tastes of their kids. We
grew up on the 'you eat whats put in front of you' philosophy.
I agree - it's sometimes quite funny to see the look on their face when
they realise that you won't pander to them!
Post by Allan Yates
I think this is just another way in which Scouting can make better
people of the kids in the program.
Yes. I remember being thanked by the parent of one PL, because he
never used to eat Chinese food, meaning that his Mum always had to sort
something else out if the rest of the family got a takeaway.

I took all the PLs (including him) to a Chinese restaurant for our
annual PLs meal, and since then, he's eaten it without a problem. :-)

Steve.
Steve Spicer
2006-06-03 06:12:55 UTC
Permalink
On 29 May 2006 07:00:21 -0700, "Steve Smith"
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Allan Yates
Too many parents we find cater to the fussy tastes of their kids. We
grew up on the 'you eat whats put in front of you' philosophy.
I agree - it's sometimes quite funny to see the look on their face when
they realise that you won't pander to them!
Post by Allan Yates
I think this is just another way in which Scouting can make better
people of the kids in the program.
Yes. I remember being thanked by the parent of one PL, because he
never used to eat Chinese food, meaning that his Mum always had to sort
something else out if the rest of the family got a takeaway.
Amusingly, the fussiest eater on most of our camps is our ASL, who
doesn't like "foreign muck" and always insists of cooking himself
something else whenever there is a curry or similar, which can make it
a little difficult to encourage the Scouts to try new things. We just
tend to ignore him in these situations.

Mind you, we think he shops at "Xenophobes'R'Us".
--
Steve Spicer
Aspley Guise Scouts SL
http://www.aspleyguisescouts.org.uk
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-03 22:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Spicer
On 29 May 2006 07:00:21 -0700, "Steve Smith"
Amusingly, the fussiest eater on most of our camps is our ASL, who
doesn't like "foreign muck" and always insists of cooking himself
something else whenever there is a curry or similar, which can make it
a little difficult to encourage the Scouts to try new things. We just
tend to ignore him in these situations.
One often ASLs at our Summer Camp last year invariably pushed his food round
the plate asked what it was then left it. About 10 O'clock he would got out
"for some fags" and pop in the local kebab house.

We never did find out what he preferred to eat!
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Kerry
2006-06-06 18:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allan Yates
We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)
I must confess I'm concerned at your amusement over feeding meat to a
child whose parent said he shouldn't eat it. Would you take such glee
from feeding bacon to a child whose parent says he is Jewish?

Perhaps I'm beginning to see where some of the parent tensions come
from.

Kerry
NJ
2006-06-06 19:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry
Post by Allan Yates
We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)
I must confess I'm concerned at your amusement over feeding meat to a
child whose parent said he shouldn't eat it. Would you take such glee
from feeding bacon to a child whose parent says he is Jewish?
Perhaps I'm beginning to see where some of the parent tensions come
from.
Kerry
If the kid was happy eating the sausage then surely he isn't a
vegetarian. If the kid doesn't want to eat meat because of religion,
ethical, moral reasons or plain not liking it then they won't. On
camps where we have vegetarians we always provide a vegetarian option.
However on more than one occasion we have had vegetarian kids choose to
eat meat. In this case I can only come to two conclusions. Either the
kid has not has the reason behind them being a vegetarian explained to
them by there parent. Or it has been explained but they happen to
disagree with the reasoning. Either way this is a worry to me. I
don't like it when adults push there views on children.

If there is a vegetarian on camp then a vegetarian option MUST be
provided. However I would not prevent them from choosing the other
option. I will not enforce others beliefs on a YP just like I won't
enforce my own.

NJ
Kerry
2006-06-06 19:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by NJ
I
don't like it when adults push there views on children.
Like they must go to school, not beat up other children ...?

On a more serious note, can I conclude that you would consider it okay
for the child from my example that parents want to be Jewish to choose
to eat pig products?

Kerry
NJ
2006-06-06 19:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry
Post by NJ
I
don't like it when adults push there views on children.
Like they must go to school, not beat up other children ...?
The above also happen to be the law. An adult should try to provide a
balanced argument. If a kid feels the need to miss school or beat up
others a discussion should show them the error of there ways.
Post by Kerry
On a more serious note, can I conclude that you would consider it okay
for the child from my example that parents want to be Jewish to choose
to eat pig products?
Kerry
The parents need to have a discussion with the child about his religion
so that he will refuse pig products if it is offered.

NJ
Ewan Scott
2006-06-06 23:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry
Post by NJ
I
don't like it when adults push there views on children.
Like they must go to school, not beat up other children ...?
On a more serious note, can I conclude that you would consider it okay
for the child from my example that parents want to be Jewish to choose
to eat pig products?
Er, yes. If the child so chooses that is one thing. If someone force
feeds that is quite another.

Ewan Scott
Graham Drabble
2006-06-07 16:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry
Post by NJ
I
don't like it when adults push there views on children.
Like they must go to school, not beat up other children ...?
On a more serious note, can I conclude that you would consider it
okay for the child from my example that parents want to be Jewish
to choose to eat pig products?
Yes, though I would want to have a discussion with him first about
whether he really thought he was doing the right thing rather than
bowing to peer pressure.
--
Graham Drabble
QM / ACSL 1st Hassocks. ASL 43rd Oxford
http://www.drabble.me.uk/
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-08 00:22:12 UTC
Permalink
If parents make it quite clear up front why their child is to be given
veggie food then fine, not a problem.

Most nights its easy, if its spag bog then we use bean feast and everybody
has the same, if its sausage and mash then they normally have egg, fried
mushrooms and mash, if you are veggie then be a veggie and don't eat meat,
if you want you food meat shaped then eat meat! (so we don't do veggie
sausages)

If they are cooking as a patrol then I will normally give them a trangia to
do the veggie special bits to avoid contamination, so long as it comes back
clean I don't ask what they ate.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
poison dwarf
2006-06-08 08:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Rainsbury
If parents make it quite clear up front why their child is to be given
veggie food then fine, not a problem.
Most nights its easy, if its spag bog then we use bean feast and everybody
has the same, if its sausage and mash then they normally have egg, fried
mushrooms and mash, if you are veggie then be a veggie and don't eat
meat, if you want you food meat shaped then eat meat! (so we don't do
veggie sausages)
If they are cooking as a patrol then I will normally give them a trangia
to do the veggie special bits to avoid contamination, so long as it comes
back clean I don't ask what they ate.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
I have two cubs who are veggie, and I admit I do buy the sausages etc.
Simple reason is that they don't want to stand out as having different food
from their friends. When they sit down they eat bangers and mash same as
everyone.
--
Amanda Lawrence (Akela)
Dragons & Griffins
2nd/4th Barry Cub Scouts
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-08 22:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by poison dwarf
I have two cubs who are veggie, and I admit I do buy the sausages etc.
Simple reason is that they don't want to stand out as having different
food from their friends. When they sit down they eat bangers and mash same
as everyone.
Mine like to be seen to be different, its a teenager thing I suppose
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Phil Bradshaw
2006-06-06 23:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by NJ
Post by Kerry
Post by Allan Yates
We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)
I must confess I'm concerned at your amusement over feeding meat to a
child whose parent said he shouldn't eat it. Would you take such glee
from feeding bacon to a child whose parent says he is Jewish?
Perhaps I'm beginning to see where some of the parent tensions come
from.
Kerry
If the kid was happy eating the sausage then surely he isn't a
vegetarian. If the kid doesn't want to eat meat because of religion,
ethical, moral reasons or plain not liking it then they won't. On
camps where we have vegetarians we always provide a vegetarian option.
However on more than one occasion we have had vegetarian kids choose to
eat meat. In this case I can only come to two conclusions. Either the
kid has not has the reason behind them being a vegetarian explained to
them by there parent. Or it has been explained but they happen to
disagree with the reasoning. Either way this is a worry to me. I
don't like it when adults push there views on children.
If there is a vegetarian on camp then a vegetarian option MUST be
provided. However I would not prevent them from choosing the other
option. I will not enforce others beliefs on a YP just like I won't
enforce my own.
Serious question: is it our place to permit or allow contradiction of
parents' convictions?

The way I reason it out is that if the required or preferred options are
available but Scouts experiment and choose otherwise then that's part of
their learning.
Dave
2006-06-07 09:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by NJ
Post by Kerry
Post by Allan Yates
We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)
I must confess I'm concerned at your amusement over feeding meat to a
child whose parent said he shouldn't eat it. Would you take such glee
from feeding bacon to a child whose parent says he is Jewish?
Perhaps I'm beginning to see where some of the parent tensions come
from.
Kerry
If the kid was happy eating the sausage then surely he isn't a
vegetarian. If the kid doesn't want to eat meat because of religion,
ethical, moral reasons or plain not liking it then they won't. On
camps where we have vegetarians we always provide a vegetarian option.
However on more than one occasion we have had vegetarian kids choose to
eat meat. In this case I can only come to two conclusions. Either the
kid has not has the reason behind them being a vegetarian explained to
them by there parent. Or it has been explained but they happen to
disagree with the reasoning. Either way this is a worry to me. I
don't like it when adults push there views on children.
If there is a vegetarian on camp then a vegetarian option MUST be
provided. However I would not prevent them from choosing the other
option. I will not enforce others beliefs on a YP just like I won't
enforce my own.
NJ
We have twins in our troop and one is "vegetarian" and one is not.

The problem we have is with every event it changes which one is and which
one is not.

On Christmas camp last year only that events "vegetarian" was there (his
brother was not) he was given his Christmas meal with a vegetarian option to
the turkey (it looked like it though). He made the statement that he wished
he had taken the turkey.

Just for the record at least one of the parents is vegetairian so that is
where it comes from but the changes at to which one? It is never both one
way or the other.

DaveB
West Yorks
Allan Yates
2006-06-07 13:32:25 UTC
Permalink
We didn't force feed the kid :)

Just like the rest of the kids, he was allowed to pick from the food
available. At the beginning he was eating vegatables only, but by the
end of the weekend he decided he liked venison. Out amusement came from
the fact that the mother told us he was a vegetarian, but evidently the
kid thought different.

A jewish kid would get the same treatment, we don't discriminate. If he
wanted to eat bacon, that his choice. Whether he told his parents would
be up to him.


Allan.
Post by Kerry
Post by Allan Yates
We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)
I must confess I'm concerned at your amusement over feeding meat to a
child whose parent said he shouldn't eat it. Would you take such glee
from feeding bacon to a child whose parent says he is Jewish?
Perhaps I'm beginning to see where some of the parent tensions come
from.
Kerry
chris.5th
2006-06-07 13:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allan Yates
We didn't force feed the kid :)
Just like the rest of the kids, he was allowed to pick from the food
available. At the beginning he was eating vegatables only, but by the
end of the weekend he decided he liked venison. Out amusement came from
the fact that the mother told us he was a vegetarian, but evidently the
kid thought different.
A jewish kid would get the same treatment, we don't discriminate. If he
wanted to eat bacon, that his choice. Whether he told his parents would
be up to him.
Allan.
Post by Kerry
Post by Allan Yates
We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)
I must confess I'm concerned at your amusement over feeding meat to a
child whose parent said he shouldn't eat it. Would you take such glee
from feeding bacon to a child whose parent says he is Jewish?
Perhaps I'm beginning to see where some of the parent tensions come
from.
Kerry
Yup, once they are scouts, it's their choice.

I had some scouts on camp a couple of years ago with religious dietary
requiremnts. I couldn't get the correct ritually slaughtered meat so
they got veggie options. But often chose the normal meat. I asked if
they were sure, i pointed out that religion isn't mean to be easy, and
sometimes you have to make tough choices. (eg. being 12 and not having
a beefburger) but i left it up to them. A year later they fasted
through camp for Ramadan (sp?) which meant no food or drink during
daylight hours... that's the point of being a teenager... leanring
about oneself. it didn't pt me out on either occasion...
Graham Drabble
2006-06-07 16:05:09 UTC
Permalink
A year later they fasted through camp for
Ramadan (sp?) which meant no food or drink during daylight
hours... that's the point of being a teenager... leanring about
oneself. it didn't pt me out on either occasion...
That's something that would worry me, purely on health grounds. Camps are
active and kids are often hot and sweaty. Going without drink all day
could well be positively dangerous. I'd certainly want to have a detailed
chat with both parent and Scout about dehydration and the conditions
under which they can drink.
--
Graham Drabble
QM / ACSL 1st Hassocks. ASL 43rd Oxford
http://www.drabble.me.uk/
Neil Williams
2006-06-07 22:44:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Drabble
That's something that would worry me, purely on health grounds. Camps are
active and kids are often hot and sweaty. Going without drink all day
could well be positively dangerous. I'd certainly want to have a detailed
chat with both parent and Scout about dehydration and the conditions
under which they can drink.
I'd agree with that. I have a Muslim colleague who also does that, but
I would personally have great difficulty doing it as I
dehydrate/overheat very easily. If running around on camp I'd find it
very difficult indeed. I realise that it is intended to be difficult,
but it might be a real health problem on camp as distinct from sitting
in an office where it might just be unpleasant.

I would be particularly concerned if it were a hike.

Neil
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-08 00:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.5th
a beefburger) but i left it up to them. A year later they fasted
through camp for Ramadan (sp?) which meant no food or drink during
daylight hours... that's the point of being a teenager... leanring
about oneself. it didn't pt me out on either occasion...
I will put myself out for most things for most kids, however that would be
an exception for me.

I insist on them eating properly, having plenty to drink, and going to bed
at a reasonable time because to me that's how kids are supposed to be looked
after and I can live with that.

If somebody insisted on going outside that, i.e. asking me not to look after
a kid properly then sorry the kid doesn't go on my events.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
chris.5th
2006-06-08 09:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Rainsbury
Post by chris.5th
a beefburger) but i left it up to them. A year later they fasted
through camp for Ramadan (sp?) which meant no food or drink during
daylight hours... that's the point of being a teenager... leanring
about oneself. it didn't pt me out on either occasion...
I will put myself out for most things for most kids, however that would be
an exception for me.
I insist on them eating properly, having plenty to drink, and going to bed
at a reasonable time because to me that's how kids are supposed to be looked
after and I can live with that.
If somebody insisted on going outside that, i.e. asking me not to look after
a kid properly then sorry the kid doesn't go on my events.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
It was Bisley, so they weren't running around. (Only handling guns!) i
agree, it's not the western way of doing something, but hey ho. They
didn't seem to come to any harm. Their parents were happy and (more
importantly) they were happy doing it. There is less risk of
dehydration in surrey in October then in Saudi so i let it go on
without too much questioning.
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-08 22:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.5th
importantly) they were happy doing it. There is less risk of
dehydration in surrey in October then in Saudi so i let it go on
without too much questioning.
You are right I would probably end up taking them too and kicking myself for
the whole camp for taking the risk!
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Dr John Stockton
2006-06-08 19:46:01 UTC
Permalink
JRS: In article <***@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
, dated Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:00:45 remote, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting,
Post by chris.5th
Post by chris.5th
a beefburger) but i left it up to them. A year later they fasted
through camp for Ramadan (sp?) which meant no food or drink during
There is less risk of
dehydration in surrey in October then in Saudi
Ramadan gets about ten days earlier each Gregorian year ...

There should IMHO be fact sheets in
(1) Religious observance and compatibility
(2) Effects of above on activities.

Please read the newsgroup FAQ on quoting; and, James, the bit therein on
SigSeps is corrupt.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/> - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.
Dr John Stockton
2006-06-07 14:07:34 UTC
Permalink
JRS: In article <***@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
, dated Mon, 29 May 2006 06:35:17 remote, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting,
Post by Allan Yates
We're not politically correct, we don't cater to any tastes at our
camps.
And you ignore established UK/Usenet posting conventions, as given in
the monthly FAQ.
Post by Allan Yates
We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)
If you have accepted that statement from the mother, without expressing
any reservation or dissent, you have by allowing the child to eat meat
broken a probable implicit promise by you to the mother, and may have
encouraged the child to disobey a parent.

Vegetarian can be taken as having different meanings, when used in a
context permitting imprecision or by those of inexact mind.

It could mean "he does not like meat, so may need other food provided".
It could mean "his doctor says no meat".
It could mean "alas, he won't eat meat like the rest of us".
It could mean "his parents think eating meat is wrong, and so do not
allow him to do so".
It could mean "we are Jewish, eating kosher at home; but allow
vegetarian as a compromise when away from home".
It could mean "similar but another faith".


IMHO, if any parent indicates anything particular about a child's eating
(or other) habits, the leaders need to make themselves clear as to the
background and to arrange that the child is treated accordingly.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
For more on our news hierarchy news:uk.*, see newsgroups news:uk.answers and
news:uk.net.news.*, and <URL:http://www.usenet.org.uk/>.
Dave
2006-06-08 08:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr John Stockton
, dated Mon, 29 May 2006 06:35:17 remote, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting,
Post by Allan Yates
We're not politically correct, we don't cater to any tastes at our
camps.
And you ignore established UK/Usenet posting conventions, as given in
the monthly FAQ.
Post by Allan Yates
We had one kid whose mother claimed he was a vegetarian. He was
chomping down venison sausages by the end of the weekend :)
If you have accepted that statement from the mother, without expressing
any reservation or dissent, you have by allowing the child to eat meat
broken a probable implicit promise by you to the mother, and may have
encouraged the child to disobey a parent.
Vegetarian can be taken as having different meanings, when used in a
context permitting imprecision or by those of inexact mind.
It could mean "he does not like meat, so may need other food provided".
It could mean "his doctor says no meat".
It could mean "alas, he won't eat meat like the rest of us".
It could mean "his parents think eating meat is wrong, and so do not
allow him to do so".
It could mean "we are Jewish, eating kosher at home; but allow
vegetarian as a compromise when away from home".
It could mean "similar but another faith".
IMHO, if any parent indicates anything particular about a child's eating
(or other) habits, the leaders need to make themselves clear as to the
background and to arrange that the child is treated accordingly.
--
MIME. ©
Post by Dr John Stockton
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
For more on our news hierarchy news:uk.*, see newsgroups news:uk.answers and
news:uk.net.news.*, and <URL:http://www.usenet.org.uk/>.
It may also mean that those are the views of the parents and not necessarily
those of the child.

If the vegetarian option is provided and the child chooses the meat option
then as a leader we ought to point out the parents wishes but we cannot ban
them from eating something that they want PROVIDING that it is not a medical
reason which by so doing will or is likely to make them ill.

Like I would not allow someone with a nut allergy to try nuts but if the
parent said they didn't want their child to have nuts for any other reason
then how can I guarantee that if the child decides to have them.

DaveB
West Yorks
Dr John Stockton
2006-06-08 20:35:37 UTC
Permalink
JRS: In article <***@karoo.co.uk>, dated Thu, 8 Jun
2006 09:56:28 remote, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting, Dave
Post by Dave
Post by Dr John Stockton
IMHO, if any parent indicates anything particular about a child's eating
(or other) habits, the leaders need to make themselves clear as to the
background and to arrange that the child is treated accordingly.
--
©
Please read the newsgroup FAQ on quoting.
Post by Dave
It may also mean that those are the views of the parents and not necessarily
those of the child.
The considered views of the parents are more important than the wishes
of the child.
Post by Dave
If the vegetarian option is provided and the child chooses the meat option
then as a leader we ought to point out the parents wishes but we cannot ban
them from eating something that they want PROVIDING that it is not a medical
reason which by so doing will or is likely to make them ill.
You can and should ban them, since otherwise you are encouraging them to
break B-P's second Scout Law in respect of their parents; moreover, if
the parents have been allowed to believe that the child would eat only
vegetarian then you will have broken a promise made to the parents.
Post by Dave
Like I would not allow someone with a nut allergy to try nuts but if the
parent said they didn't want their child to have nuts for any other reason
then how can I guarantee that if the child decides to have them.
If you can prevent the allergic from eating nuts, then you can prevent
others from eating nuts. In each case you should make a reasonable
effort, considering the likely consequences.

Non-rigorous Jews may decide that, out of the Jewish milieu, they will
go vegetarian as a reasonable compromise. You should not encourage
their child to eat bacon sarnies, under normal circumstances; you should
provide veggy sarnies for the child. But if you find yourselves lost up
Ben Nevis in a blizzard, and some Gentile glutton wolfed the veggy
stuff, then you need to tell the Jewish child that, under the
circumstances, he should eat some or all of the bacon sarnies (the bread
will be polluted) - and that will be right by both British and (AIUI)
Jewish Law.

Change in that paragraph the Jewish child to a nut-allergist, and the
bacon sarnies to peanut butter ones, and the child MUST NOT eat those;
and, to allow for mistakes, the prudent leader will at least have
brought and kept separately spare safe sarnies, or preferably will have
bought only safe ones.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Plaintext, quoting : see <URL:http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html>
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SoRFC1036)
Steve Smith
2006-06-09 08:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr John Stockton
Please read the newsgroup FAQ on quoting.
Get a life!
Post by Dr John Stockton
The considered views of the parents are more important than the wishes
of the child.
Try telling that to a rebellious teenager!

What if the "child" is a 17 year old Explorer Scout? How about a 14
year old Scout? An 8 year old cub? Where do you draw the line?
Post by Dr John Stockton
You can and should ban them, since otherwise you are encouraging them to
break B-P's second Scout Law in respect of their parents; moreover, if
the parents have been allowed to believe that the child would eat only
vegetarian then you will have broken a promise made to the parents.
And what about the 7th Scout law, re having self respect and respect
for others? Surely if you don't allow the YP to make their own
decisions, you are failing to show respect ot them, and denying them
their own self-respect?
Post by Dr John Stockton
If you can prevent the allergic from eating nuts, then you can prevent
others from eating nuts. In each case you should make a reasonable
effort, considering the likely consequences.
But that's the point. The consequences are very different if the YP is
allergic to nuts, and if the parents don't want him to eat them for
some other reason. You can't watch the 24 hours a day. If someone
brings out a bag of peanuts in the tent after lights out, a YP who is
allergic would be very foolish to eat one. A YP whose parents doesn't
want him to eat one, but can do so with no side effects may well choose
to do so, and there's nothing the leader can do about it (or would want
to, IMHO).
Post by Dr John Stockton
Non-rigorous Jews may decide that, out of the Jewish milieu, they will
go vegetarian as a reasonable compromise. You should not encourage
their child to eat bacon sarnies, under normal circumstances;
What if the YP likes bacon sarnies, and chooses of their own volition,
after careful consideration and discussion with their leader, to eat
one?

Steve.
Dr John Stockton
2006-06-09 22:33:21 UTC
Permalink
JRS: In article <***@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
, dated Fri, 9 Jun 2006 01:33:28 remote, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting,
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Dr John Stockton
Please read the newsgroup FAQ on quoting.
Get a life!
So not only do you disregard accepted behaviour, for news:uk.* and for
this group; but you apparently refuse to see what the agreed document
says.
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Dr John Stockton
The considered views of the parents are more important than the wishes
of the child.
Try telling that to a rebellious teenager!
Certainly. They will not like it; but if you are a respected Leader it
should have some effect.
Post by Steve Smith
What if the "child" is a 17 year old Explorer Scout? How about a 14
year old Scout? An 8 year old cub? Where do you draw the line?
You draw the line between child and adult. You should have indicated to
the parents the closeness of your control and the freedoms that the YP
will have; and that will depend on the age of the YP.
Post by Steve Smith
And what about the 7th Scout law, re having self respect and respect
for others? Surely if you don't allow the YP to make their own
decisions, you are failing to show respect ot them, and denying them
their own self-respect?
The views of those who bear the responsibility are more important than
those of a child. It is courteous to treat the child's view with
respect, but wrong to allow the child to do whatever he at first wants;
instead, you should persuade the child to do willingly what is right.
If you want complete discretion for yourself, you must be granted that
by the parents.
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Dr John Stockton
Non-rigorous Jews may decide that, out of the Jewish milieu, they will
go vegetarian as a reasonable compromise. You should not encourage
their child to eat bacon sarnies, under normal circumstances;
What if the YP likes bacon sarnies, and chooses of their own volition,
after careful consideration and discussion with their leader, to eat
one?
Such a child should not know whether he would like them.

Your actions should depend on what you have agreed, implicitly or
explicitly, with his parents. Certainly, if you let Scouts shop
unsupervised, the child will be able to buy and eat baconburgers,
washing-powder, etc.; you cannot have absolute physical control. But
it's not wise to accept camp-leadership responsibility for a child who
you cannot trust to respect your instructions, when those are lawful and
compatible with those of his parents.

Scout Leaders are, when acting as such, neither schoolteachers nor
zookeepers - although there are times when it's useful to be able to
emulate some of their professional skills.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Steve Smith
2006-06-10 08:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr John Stockton
Post by Steve Smith
Get a life!
So not only do you disregard accepted behaviour, for news:uk.* and for
this group; but you apparently refuse to see what the agreed document
says.
Yes. Do you read out a set of rules to people in the pub / campfire /
water cooler before they are allowed to have a conversation with you?
:-)

Call me an anarchist, but IMHO, this is a free forum, and most of us
here can manage a conversation without worrying about who quotes what,
or what symbols get used where!
Post by Dr John Stockton
Certainly. They will not like it; but if you are a respected Leader it
should have some effect.
I think you would soon stop being respected if you are seen as being on
the parents' "side".
Post by Dr John Stockton
You draw the line between child and adult. You should have indicated to
the parents the closeness of your control and the freedoms that the YP
will have; and that will depend on the age of the YP.
Do you really tell parents in infinite detail exactly what happens
minute by minute on a camp? Do you give them a list of every activity
that their child might spend time doing, and the precise level of
control that you may or may ot have over it? Or do you rely on an
element of trust?

Steve. (with apologies for any offence caused by any incorrect quoting,
symbols, "sigseps" (whatever they are) or any other arcane interweb
practice).

(without apologies for offence caused by what I actually said) :-)
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-11 21:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr John Stockton
instead, you should persuade the child to do willingly what is right.
Who says the parents are right? If they were we wouldn't use axes, knives or
fires at camp and as for those nasty tents..
Post by Dr John Stockton
Your actions should depend on what you have agreed, implicitly or
explicitly, with his parents. Certainly, if you let Scouts shop
unsupervised, the child will be able to buy and eat baconburgers,
If the parents want to talk to me they have muy number, I am not going to be
ringing them specifically.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Dave
2006-06-12 10:14:38 UTC
Permalink
"Dr John Stockton" <***@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@merlyn.demon.co.uk...
SNIP
Post by Dr John Stockton
The views of those who bear the responsibility are more important than
those of a child. It is courteous to treat the child's view with
respect, but wrong to allow the child to do whatever he at first wants;
The view of those who bear the responsibility are not always more important.
A chils will never de3velop if all they ever do is as they are told.
Post by Dr John Stockton
instead, you should persuade the child to do willingly what is right.
Who decides what is right.
Post by Dr John Stockton
If you want complete discretion for yourself, you must be granted that
by the parents.
SNIP
Post by Dr John Stockton
Such a child should not know whether he would like them.
Should? How do you know they should not like something, if it is because he
has been told that it is against his religion that means that he should not
have it according to that. By the same token a child who has never tasted
brussel sprouts but has been told they are terrible would not know until
they tasted one - not againt his religion no.
Post by Dr John Stockton
Your actions should depend on what you have agreed, implicitly or
explicitly, with his parents.
Possibly nothing - I cannot guarantee. If his parents are worried that he
may eat something that he is not supposed to or will take part in an
activity that they sooner he didn't then they must take that into account
when deciding whether he comes or not. If they cannot trust him why should
you.

If a parent told you that their child must have a large whiskey every night
to help them sleep would you oblige.
Post by Dr John Stockton
Certainly, if you let Scouts shop
unsupervised, the child will be able to buy and eat baconburgers,
washing-powder, etc.; you cannot have absolute physical control. But
it's not wise to accept camp-leadership responsibility for a child who
you cannot trust to respect your instructions, when those are lawful and
compatible with those of his parents.
Do they trust him - if not then why let him go and give you the
responsibillity.
Post by Dr John Stockton
Scout Leaders are, when acting as such, neither schoolteachers nor
zookeepers - although there are times when it's useful to be able to
emulate some of their professional skills.
--
MIME. ©
Post by Dr John Stockton
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
DaveB
West Yorks

Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-11 21:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Smith
What if the YP likes bacon sarnies, and chooses of their own volition,
after careful consideration and discussion with their leader, to eat
one?
O would have to suggest that they tried Brown Sauce rather than Ketchup
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Dave
2006-06-09 09:48:30 UTC
Permalink
SNIP
Post by Dr John Stockton
Post by Dave
It may also mean that those are the views of the parents and not necessarily
those of the child.
The considered views of the parents are more important than the wishes
of the child.
So if you don't agree with the views of the parents or you cannot guarantee
that you can follow them then the child cannot go?

That is hardly helping a child to develop as an individual rather than a
clone of their parents.
Post by Dr John Stockton
Post by Dave
If the vegetarian option is provided and the child chooses the meat option
then as a leader we ought to point out the parents wishes but we cannot ban
them from eating something that they want PROVIDING that it is not a medical
reason which by so doing will or is likely to make them ill.
You can and should ban them, since otherwise you are encouraging them to
break B-P's second Scout Law in respect of their parents;
Loyalty to their parents can be shown or lost in many ways, but development
as an individual is also inportant. Plus I never said anything about
encouraging them to break the rule or become disloyal.

You cannot guarantee that someone will do or not do something. What if the
parent says that their child has to have had their supper by 8pm and in bed
by 9pm. Can you guarantee that. If not the child cannot go.
Post by Dr John Stockton
moreover, if
the parents have been allowed to believe that the child would eat only
vegetarian then you will have broken a promise made to the parents.
I make no such promise to parents - I ask them if there are any foods that
their child cannot eat because of food allergies or religious observance so
that allowances can be made in the menu. I will ensure as far as I can that
if someone is going to become ill by eating something that they do not but I
do not say that that I can be 100% as I do not see the child 24 hours a
day - in these circumstances the child is also expected to take some
responsibillity for what they eat.

Likewise with religious eating - I can guarantee that I can plan for their
childs food but I cannot guarantee that if a Jew/Muslim wants pig products
that that I can stop them - I will talk to them and put it to them what
their parents have stated but I will not take the food from them.
Post by Dr John Stockton
Post by Dave
Like I would not allow someone with a nut allergy to try nuts but if the
parent said they didn't want their child to have nuts for any other reason
then how can I guarantee that if the child decides to have them.
If you can prevent the allergic from eating nuts, then you can prevent
others from eating nuts. In each case you should make a reasonable
effort, considering the likely consequences.
What would you consider "reasonable effort" to stop someone who is not going
to become ill by doing it, and what are the likely consequences if the child
is not allergic - other than the wrath of the parent to whom you never made
a promise.

SNIP
MIME. ©
Post by Dr John Stockton
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Plaintext, quoting : see <URL:http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html>
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SoRFC1036)
DaveB
W£est Yorks
A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
2006-06-09 11:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
I make no such promise to parents - I ask them if there are any foods that
their child cannot eat because of food allergies or religious observance so
that allowances can be made in the menu. I will ensure as far as I can that
if someone is going to become ill by eating something that they do not but I
do not say that that I can be 100% as I do not see the child 24 hours a
day - in these circumstances the child is also expected to take some
responsibillity for what they eat.
Likewise with religious eating - I can guarantee that I can plan for their
childs food but I cannot guarantee that if a Jew/Muslim wants pig products
that that I can stop them - I will talk to them and put it to them what
their parents have stated but I will not take the food from them.
What follows is a situation I have witnessed, how would you therefore
deal with it? (Thought experiment for people to do in their heads.)

You are at camp, typical size of scout troop, adult ratios etc. You're
not doing anything unusual.

Parents have said that their child must not eat sweets, lots of sugar or
items containing certain E numbers. This child is not allergic* to the
items and will not come to any lasting harm having eaten them, nor is it
a moral or religious choice imposed by the parents.
* by allergic, here, I mean with a reaction which could cause
anaphylactic shock or other physical medical problems, rather than an
intolerance or other reaction.

Do you let the child eat them, say having been offered them by a friend?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)







Child buys the items with their own money from the campsite tuck shop.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)






You now know the child becomes hyperactive on these sweets, they are not
in any danger but can be hard to handle, and won't go to sleep the
subsequent night, potentially disturbing their patrol and maybe the
entire camp.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)






You now know the child becomes hyperactive on these sweets, but will not
only be hard to handle but won't then listen to adult's advice. This
could cause a hazard both to themself and to others, as you will be
doing potentially dangerous activities (using axes, archery, climbing
etc) - dangerous when safety instructions are not followed. You might
need to assign one adult to supervise that child totally and they may
disrupt all activities that day.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?





The child *wants* to eat these items, they are old enough to make their
own mind up that they want to, they know their behaviour afterwards but
they want to enjoy a foodstuff they like, they aren't breaking the law
by eating or possessing them.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?



Now think back...
Did you change your mind?

Considering I know parents don't tell Guiders their daughter has a
learning difficulty which we could support (as opposed to letting her
struggle because we don't have the information needed) because they
"don't want her discriminated against", ditto potentially serious
conditions such as epilepsy, asthma and a severe heart condition, I'm
not convinced all parents will tell you why they've put down these
instructions, even if you reiterate why we ask these questions before
going to camp.

AEndr
Steve Smith
2006-06-09 12:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
What follows is a situation I have witnessed, how would you therefore
deal with it? (Thought experiment for people to do in their heads.)
You are at camp, typical size of scout troop, adult ratios etc. You're
not doing anything unusual.
Parents have said that their child must not eat sweets, lots of sugar or
items containing certain E numbers. This child is not allergic* to the
items and will not come to any lasting harm having eaten them, nor is it
a moral or religious choice imposed by the parents.
* by allergic, here, I mean with a reaction which could cause
anaphylactic shock or other physical medical problems, rather than an
intolerance or other reaction.
Do you let the child eat them, say having been offered them by a friend?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)
Firstly I'd inform the parents that I'd do my best, but that sweets
were available on camp, and I couldn't guarantee that little Jonny
wouldn't get his hands on them. I'd also ask the parents what they
wanted me to do if he did get hold of sweets.

Given the situation abovem, I'd remind little Jonny of his parents'
wishes, and ask him not to eat the sweets. However, depending on the
individual, I might well be fully expecting him to carry on when my
back was turned. :-)
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
Child buys the items with their own money from the campsite tuck shop.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)
Depending on what the parents had said to me, I'd probably confiscate
the sweets, and give them back to the parents at the end of camp. I'd
give little Jonny the option of calling his parents on my phone to
discuss the situation.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
You now know the child becomes hyperactive on these sweets, they are not
in any danger but can be hard to handle, and won't go to sleep the
subsequent night, potentially disturbing their patrol and maybe the
entire camp.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
As above, possibly with a reminder that if his behaviour is
unacceptable (because of sugar or otherwise), he will be going home.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
You now know the child becomes hyperactive on these sweets, but will not
only be hard to handle but won't then listen to adult's advice. This
could cause a hazard both to themself and to others, as you will be
doing potentially dangerous activities (using axes, archery, climbing
etc) - dangerous when safety instructions are not followed. You might
need to assign one adult to supervise that child totally and they may
disrupt all activities that day.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
As above.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
The child *wants* to eat these items, they are old enough to make their
own mind up that they want to, they know their behaviour afterwards but
they want to enjoy a foodstuff they like, they aren't breaking the law
by eating or possessing them.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
As above.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
Now think back...
Did you change your mind?
Not within this post, but it is a different response to those I've made
in other posts.

Steve.
Dave
2006-06-09 12:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
Post by Dave
I make no such promise to parents - I ask them if there are any foods that
their child cannot eat because of food allergies or religious observance so
that allowances can be made in the menu. I will ensure as far as I can that
if someone is going to become ill by eating something that they do not but I
do not say that that I can be 100% as I do not see the child 24 hours a
day - in these circumstances the child is also expected to take some
responsibillity for what they eat.
Likewise with religious eating - I can guarantee that I can plan for their
childs food but I cannot guarantee that if a Jew/Muslim wants pig products
that that I can stop them - I will talk to them and put it to them what
their parents have stated but I will not take the food from them.
What follows is a situation I have witnessed, how would you therefore
deal with it? (Thought experiment for people to do in their heads.)
You are at camp, typical size of scout troop, adult ratios etc. You're
not doing anything unusual.
Parents have said that their child must not eat sweets, lots of sugar or
items containing certain E numbers. This child is not allergic* to the
items and will not come to any lasting harm having eaten them, nor is it
a moral or religious choice imposed by the parents.
* by allergic, here, I mean with a reaction which could cause
anaphylactic shock or other physical medical problems, rather than an
intolerance or other reaction.
Do you let the child eat them, say having been offered them by a friend?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)
I don't LET them have it if I KNOW about it - but I cannot guarantee that it
will not happen when I am not able to stop it. I do point out that it is
against their parents wishes if they do so if I see them.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
Child buys the items with their own money from the campsite tuck shop.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)
I think that I would talk to the child to ask why they had bought them when
they knew their parent didn't want them to - then ask them what they wanted
me to do. Look after them for safe keeping or ring the parent to ask if it
was OK or whether they were going to do it anyway. Remember I have made no
promise - just that I will not give them.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
You now know the child becomes hyperactive on these sweets, they are not
in any danger but can be hard to handle, and won't go to sleep the
subsequent night, potentially disturbing their patrol and maybe the
entire camp.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)
As above - but may keep them in a separate tent or advise the parent to come
and collect them for the sake of the others if this proves to be the case,
thus only loosing 1 nights sleep.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
You now know the child becomes hyperactive on these sweets, but will not
only be hard to handle but won't then listen to adult's advice. This
could cause a hazard both to themself and to others, as you will be
doing potentially dangerous activities (using axes, archery, climbing
etc) - dangerous when safety instructions are not followed. You might
need to assign one adult to supervise that child totally and they may
disrupt all activities that day.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
Again as above - but more likely to get parents to collect them as they
could now become dangerous to other rather than just disruptive.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
The child *wants* to eat these items, they are old enough to make their
own mind up that they want to, they know their behaviour afterwards but
they want to enjoy a foodstuff they like, they aren't breaking the law
by eating or possessing them.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
Send them home if they decide to eat them and this happens rather than on a
threat.

With all these questions you suggest confiscation - that is fine if you hold
your hand out and they hand them over freely, if they will not then you have
to resort to other measures as you cannot physically remove them from the
sweets.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
Now think back...
Did you change your mind?
No - not with the example here as what they are doing is disrupting and
potentially dangerous. If by eating pork as a Jew/Muslim they created the
same situation then I would deal with it the same.
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
Considering I know parents don't tell Guiders their daughter has a
learning difficulty which we could support (as opposed to letting her
struggle because we don't have the information needed) because they
"don't want her discriminated against", ditto potentially serious
conditions such as epilepsy, asthma and a severe heart condition, I'm
not convinced all parents will tell you why they've put down these
instructions, even if you reiterate why we ask these questions before
going to camp.
AEndr
I agree they won't tell you a lot of things - but if I see such a statement
I would ask. If the answer was not satisfactory then the child may be
dropped from the event as I cannot hope to give the level of support with no
insight.

My son is autistic (mild) and we told his leaders but not just that but how
to ensure that he knew what was going on and what was expected of him. How
he needed to be treated as when he was younger he was a handful.We didn't
expect them to discover this for themselves.

DaveB
West Yorks
NJ
2006-06-10 10:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
My son is autistic (mild) and we told his leaders but not just that but how
to ensure that he knew what was going on and what was expected of him. How
he needed to be treated as when he was younger he was a handful.We didn't
expect them to discover this for themselves.
That's exactly the point. Parents will approach you on these sorts of
issues, as it will probably be the first significant amount of time the
child spends away from home, and parents will worry, that's there
job. Id be surprised if any parent just put 'no sweets' on a health
form without explaining that the kid becomes hyperactive. If the kid
did become uncontrollable, send him home as he is now a risk to others.
He will learn that in the future he must not eat sweets on camp.
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-11 21:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
Do you let the child eat them, say having been offered them by a friend?
(Please answer that before the next item, don't let further
information below inform your answer.)
Tell the truth I am not going to check their tuckshop purchases, if they
don't like it don't send them
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
Child buys the items with their own money from the campsite tuck shop.
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
As above
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
You now know the child becomes hyperactive on these sweets,
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
First time he did it read the riot act afterwards and tell them no as now it
effects other people,
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
You now know the child becomes hyperactive on these sweets, but will not
only be hard to handle but won't then listen to adult's advice. > Do you
let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
As above
Post by A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
The child *wants* to eat these items,
Do you let the child eat them, confiscate them or what?
Now think back...
Did you change your mind?
No if it doesn't do any harm I don't really have an issue, but if it upsets
others then I will stop it.

I tell my ES that I don't want to see them smoking so if teh parenst ask I
can honestly say that I have never seen them smoke, however if I catch them
I tend to flush the pack, which is why they only carry singles or hide them
in a girls hand bag becaus they know I won;t search that in case of ....
"things"...
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-11 21:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
So if you don't agree with the views of the parents or you cannot guarantee
that you can follow them then the child cannot go?
I wouldn't stop the kid, all I can do is promise to do my best. We are not
omnipotent and certainly my unit know EXACTLY what I kmean when I say "I
don't want to see any of you smoking!!!" (They go for a fag where I can't
see them!!)
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Stephen Rainsbury
2006-06-11 21:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr John Stockton
2006 09:56:28 remote, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting, Dave
The considered views of the parents are more important than the wishes
of the child.
Sorry I can't agree, considered does not mean correct. What if the parente
believed that little Abdul would be doing the right thing to martyr himself?

Would yo still let home come to scout meetings wearing a thick jumper? If he
said to me "To be honest IO want to grow up not blow up but my parents thing
otherwise" I would want social services involved
Post by Dr John Stockton
You can and should ban them, since otherwise you are encouraging them to
break B-P's second Scout Law in respect of their parents;
Before my time. I like to think that we often offer alternative view to the
rubbish some parents spout.
Post by Dr John Stockton
the parents have been allowed to believe that the child would eat only
vegetarian then you will have broken a promise made to the parents.
What promise?
Post by Dr John Stockton
Post by Dave
Like I would not allow someone with a nut allergy to try nuts but if the
parent said they didn't want their child to have nuts for any other reason
then how can I guarantee that if the child decides to have them.
You can't guarantee a childs saftey.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Ewan Scott
2006-06-12 09:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Rainsbury
Sorry I can't agree, considered does not mean correct. What if the parente
believed that little Abdul would be doing the right thing to martyr himself?
Would yo still let home come to scout meetings wearing a thick jumper? If he
said to me "To be honest IO want to grow up not blow up but my parents thing
otherwise" I would want social services involved
Ah, that's where we fall apart when we "take sides" with the parents
and accept that the parents "wishes must always be observed". How then
do you combat racism and sectarianism? How to you embody a scouting
ethos in a kid from an avaricious and selfish background if you cannot
question the parent's approach to life through positive development?
(Which is patently obviously contrary to the opinions of the parent).
Post by Stephen Rainsbury
Post by Dr John Stockton
You can and should ban them, since otherwise you are encouraging them to
break B-P's second Scout Law in respect of their parents;
Before my time. I like to think that we often offer alternative view to the
rubbish some parents spout.
Thank God for that. I want my kids to be better than me. I'd like to
think that we can help make our Scouts take a wider view of life than
their parents, perhaps, and in so doing help build a better society.
If we are not doing that then what exactly is the point in Scouting?
Post by Stephen Rainsbury
Post by Dr John Stockton
the parents have been allowed to believe that the child would eat only
vegetarian then you will have broken a promise made to the parents.
What promise?
Post by Dr John Stockton
Post by Dave
Like I would not allow someone with a nut allergy to try nuts but if the
parent said they didn't want their child to have nuts for any other reason
then how can I guarantee that if the child decides to have them.
You can't guarantee a childs saftey.
Indeed, we have been here before, we should never guarantee anything
we cannot actually ensure can or cannot happen.

Ewan Scott
Shaun Joynson
2006-05-30 17:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Smith
I didn't force the issue this time since she wasn't in my unit and I
didn't know her very well. However, what do you think? Is this a
reasonable excuse? What would you have done about it?
As a veggie these last 20 years who has washed up for hundreds of crew
weekends, I would tell her stop being a tit and get on with it.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Martin Whelan
2006-06-01 20:13:49 UTC
Permalink
However, what do you think? Is this a
Post by Steve Smith
reasonable excuse?
I have a pretty robust stomach but cold meat is something which really
turns my stomach, not sure why and whilst it would not stop me washing
up I think its a reasonable excuse if you are veggy. Simply give them
another job, dont make a fuss about it.

What would you have done about it?

acknowledge there wishes, and given them something else to do.
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