trustees

[rocoho]

members of the executive are trustees ,some are ex offico like dc
desc or appointed like chairman

most are elected annually inc sec and treasurer at the agm for a
period and are subject to re election at the following agm

its an SA requirement that an agm is held within six months of the
end of financial year , if there has been no agm for 3 years are the
orriginal elected exemembers still trustees?


It would seem to follow that if that if an and election has not taken
place , those persons that were previously elected are no longer
trustees , the only trustees that are in place are the ex officio
ones .

One must also assume that the previously elected trustees also can no
longer act as trustees and do not have the responsibility of trustees
as they have-not been elected for the current period .
further one must assume that the executive is not constituted and
should not be meeting as it has no powers to act .

Any thoughts

[bill]

members of the executive  are trustees  ,some are ex offico  like dc
desc  or appointed like chairman
most are elected annually inc sec and treasurer  at the agm for a
period and are subject to re election  at the following agm
its an SA requirement  that an agm is held within six months  of the
end  of financial year , if there has been no agm  for 3 years are the
orriginal elected exemembers still trustees?
It would seem to follow that if that if an  and election has not taken
place , those persons that were previously  elected are no longer
trustees , the only trustees that are in place are the ex officio
ones .
One must also assume that the previously elected trustees also can no
longer  act as trustees and do not have the responsibility of trustees
as they have-not been elected  for the current period .
further one must assume that the executive is not constituted and
should not be meeting as it has no powers to act .
Any thoughts

I'm afraid you're a bit out of date. DC and DESC aren't ex-officio
members, only have right of attendance.
Many trustees are not elected, but nominated. You need to check POR.
I agree that nominations are to be put to the Scout Council, but I do
not see why no AGM means they are nul and void

Bill

[Grant Mitchell]

Post by bill

members of the executive are trustees ,some are ex offico like dc
desc or appointed like chairman
most are elected annually inc sec and treasurer at the agm for a
period and are subject to re election at the following agm

I'm afraid you're a bit out of date. DC and DESC aren't ex-officio
members, only have right of attendance.

Only if rocoho is referring to a Group Exec - I assumed we were talking
about a District Exec.

Grant
ASL, 1st Disley

[Grant Mitchell]

Post by rocoho
members of the executive are trustees ,some are ex offico like dc
desc or appointed like chairman
most are elected annually inc sec and treasurer at the agm for a
period and are subject to re election at the following agm
its an SA requirement that an agm is held within six months of the
end of financial year , if there has been no agm for 3 years are the
orriginal elected exemembers still trustees?
It would seem to follow that if that if an and election has not taken
place , those persons that were previously elected are no longer
trustees , the only trustees that are in place are the ex officio
ones .
One must also assume that the previously elected trustees also can no
longer act as trustees and do not have the responsibility of trustees
as they have-not been elected for the current period .
further one must assume that the executive is not constituted and
should not be meeting as it has no powers to act .
Any thoughts

I'm not sure it's safe to make that assumption. I would have thought
that all Trustees remain in office either until they resign or a valid,
quorate
AGM elects a new set. Many organisations have wholly elected Trustee bodies
so if I follow your logic then if the AGM is overdue they no longer have any
Trustees -
and hence no competent body to convene an AGM!

But I don't know for certain either way and I suspect only the Charities
Commission or a court could give a definitive answer.

What seems clear is that the Exec is failing in its duties - if this is at
District
level then I would be asking the County Commissioner / County Chairman to
step
in and resolve the issue.

Grant
ASL, 1st Disley

[Ewan Scott]

Post by Grant Mitchell
What seems clear is that the Exec is failing in its duties - if this is at
District
level then I would be asking the County Commissioner / County Chairman to
step
in and resolve the issue.

I would be wary of applying the rules to the letter as most Districts and
many Groups can have serious reasons as to why they fall short on a their
AGM.

My Group runs quite well, but not to the letter of POR.

We had a treasurer who made a bit of a hash of the accounts. That delayed
the AGMs and we were late for a couple of years. We now have no Treasurer
and by special arrangement I am acting Treasurer, and even although I can
have the books ready for inspection by the second week in April, they have
to be audited, and thanks to the bank that can take several months. We have
had serious problems finding a replacement treasurer and that is also
delaying the AGM. (The books have been approved by the Exec though and have
been lodged with the CC) we just need the rubber stamp from the AGM.

I also admit that given we have tried everything but a burlesque show to
attract people to the AGM and rarely get more than the existing Exec turning
up, so this year's AGM will probably be our next Exec Meeting to rubber
stamp the accounts.

I could ask the District Exec to intervene, but the District Exec is in
disarray also, No Chairman, and the Treasurer has missed three out of the
last four meetings, including the AGM...

In saying that an Exec is failing in its duties one has first to ascertain
if there is any harm being done. If no, then it may not be meeting its
responsibilities in full, but it is doing no harm. Unfortunately, the
extended mismanagement of an Exec can lead to deeper problems, as I have
witnessed at several other Groups. Once those practices become established,
it can be very difficult to recover the situation. In fact, at a recent DEC
meeting I made the point that if the DEC was to behave as it should, then
the DC had no option but to back the DEC in trustee and management issues.
That if Group Execs failed to play their part then he would have to take
action to redress the issue. The DEC is in an invidious position in that its
role is to ensure the proper management of the District, and to ensure that
the Groups in the District are managed properly from a fiscal point of view.
Yet, if Groups fail to manage their affairs in line with POR and the CC
rules, there is precious little that the DEC can do, short of asking the DC
to intervene - and even then, he is virtually powerless when faced with the
option of disbanding an Exec, and closing the Group as a consequence of
trying to make them comply with the rules.

The solution to the issue, with the Scouting structure as it stands, would
be for the Charity Commission to set aside a small team, which would
systematically start wading through Districts and start picking up on
shortcomings and pointing out to the Execs the requirements from the CC
point of view, and highlighting that failure to comply could result in
personal liability for any shortcoming. We may lose a few Exec members along
the way, but those who remained might well perform their Trustee role
better.

Of course, the problem at the heart of all this is that people give up some
time to help manage a Scout group because it is there to help their kids.
They rarely realise that they are becoming charity trustees or what that
involves - and that is OUR shortcoming in not making them aware of that at
election/ appointment time.

Ewan Scott.

[GAGS]

members of the executive  are trustees  ,some are ex offico  like dc
desc  or appointed like chairman

Not in a GEC!

The Chairman is nominated if that's whta you mean by appointed.

most are elected annually inc sec and treasurer  at the agm for a
period and are subject to re election  at the following agm

Yes the majority should be elected. The GC and GT are elected annually
and automatically relinquish these posts at a subsequent AGM (the
following year) unless re-elected.

How elections of ordinary GEC members are run should be set in the
constitution. Some run these annually. Some rotate on a three year
basis thus ensuring continuity.

In my group the Chairman is nominated to serve annually by me. The GT
and GS are elected annually by the Council. I have up to 2 further
nominations I can make to the GEC if I wish. (Currently I have not
exercised these.) There are 6 other members of the GEC (ordinary
members), 2 parents from each section. 2 of these positions are up for
election every year. (This year it's the 2 scout parent positions).
Hence these people get to sit on the GEC for 3 years.

its an SA requirement  that an agm is held within six months  of the
end  of financial year , if there has been no agm  for 3 years are the
orriginal elected exemembers still trustees?

Depends what it says in your constitution!

It would seem to follow that if that if an  and election has not taken
place , those persons that were previously  elected are no longer
trustees , the only trustees that are in place are the ex officio
ones .

Not necessarily! This would only be true if those elected postions
were explicitly stated to be limited for a duration of one year. If
there are no limitations then they could still be legally considered
to be in place.

If there is a limitation and that has been exceeded then yes with the
end of their term in office comes also the end of their trustee
status.

One must also assume that the previously elected trustees also can no
longer  act as trustees and do not have the responsibility of trustees
as they have-not been elected  for the current period .

If that can be assumed from the constitution.

further one must assume that the executive is not constituted and
should not be meeting as it has no powers to act .

Depends on what the constitution actually says!

The ex-officio people will still be in place if there hasn't been a
qualifying election.

Any thoughts

Is this scenario or a real case?

Regards,

GAGS

[rocoho]

Post by GAGS

members of the executive  are trustees  ,some are ex offico  like dc
desc  or appointed like chairman

Not in a GEC!
The Chairman is nominated if that's whta you mean by appointed.

most are elected annually inc sec and treasurer  at the agm for a
period and are subject to re election  at the following agm

Yes the majority should be elected. The GC and GT are elected annually
and automatically relinquish these posts at a subsequent AGM (the
following year) unless re-elected.
How elections of ordinary GEC members are run should be set in the
constitution. Some run these annually. Some rotate on a three year
basis thus ensuring continuity.
In my group the Chairman is nominated to serve annually by me. The GT
and GS are elected annually by the Council. I have up to 2 further
nominations I can make to the GEC if I wish. (Currently I have not
exercised these.) There are 6 other members of the GEC (ordinary
members), 2 parents from each section. 2 of these positions are up for
election every year. (This year it's the 2 scout parent positions).
Hence these people get to sit on the GEC for 3 years.

its an SA requirement  that an agm is held within six months  of the
end  of financial year , if there has been no agm  for 3 years are the
orriginal elected exemembers still trustees?

Depends what it says in your constitution!

It would seem to follow that if that if an  and election has not taken
place , those persons that were previously  elected are no longer
trustees , the only trustees that are in place are the ex officio
ones .

Not necessarily! This would only be true if those elected postions
were explicitly stated to be limited for a duration of one year. If
there are no limitations then they could still be legally considered
to be in place.
If there is a limitation and that has been exceeded then yes with the
end of their term in office comes also the end of their trustee
status.

One must also assume that the previously elected trustees also can no
longer  act as trustees and do not have the responsibility of trustees
as they have-not been elected  for the current period .

If that can be assumed from the constitution.

further one must assume that the executive is not constituted and
should not be meeting as it has no powers to act .

Depends on what the constitution actually says!
The ex-officio people will still be in place if there hasn't been a
qualifying election.

Any thoughts

Is this scenario or a real case?

real case - a district not group , county from cc to ct, cs ,etc are
well aware of situation, although not aware of any action
will clarify details later .
will post some more details later

[rocoho]

Post by GAGS

members of the executive  are trustees  ,some are ex offico  like dc
desc  or appointed like chairman

dist exec were talking about

Post by GAGS
The Chairman is nominated if that's whta you mean by appointed.

nom and approved then an appointment issued , not that the current
chair has a formal appointment or reg on Mem database and wants to
give up . Replacement chair found but not processed apart from
having a valid crb and awaiting agm to be nominated .

Post by GAGS

most are elected annually inc sec and treasurer  at the agm for a
period and are subject to re election  at the following agm

Yes the majority should be elected. The GC and GT are elected annually
and automatically relinquish these posts at a subsequent AGM (the
following year) unless re-elected.

if there is no AGM -what then

Post by GAGS
How elections of ordinary GEC members are run should be set in the
constitution. Some run these annually. Some rotate on a three year
basis thus ensuring continuity.

not aware of a special dist constitution , although it may exist so
assume provisions of POR

Post by GAGS
In my group the Chairman is nominated to serve annually by me. The GT
and GS are elected annually by the Council. I have up to 2 further
nominations I can make to the GEC if I wish. (Currently I have not
exercised these.) There are 6 other members of the GEC (ordinary
members), 2 parents from each section. 2 of these positions are up for
election every year. (This year it's the 2 scout parent positions).
Hence these people get to sit on the GEC for 3 years.

its an SA requirement  that an agm is held within six months  of the
end  of financial year , if there has been no agm  for 3 years are the
orriginal elected exemembers still trustees?

Depends what it says in your constitution!

not aware of a special dist constitution , although it may exist so
assume provisions of POR
elections have previously taken place annually

Post by GAGS

It would seem to follow that if that if an  and election has not taken
place , those persons that were previously  elected are no longer
trustees , the only trustees that are in place are the ex officio
ones .

Not necessarily! This would only be true if those elected postions
were explicitly stated to be limited for a duration of one year. If
there are no limitations then they could still be legally considered
to be in place.

not aware of any limitations stated , just that for 20 odd years
elections have always been annually

Post by GAGS
If there is a limitation and that has been exceeded then yes with the
end of their term in office comes also the end of their trustee
status.

One must also assume that the previously elected trustees also can no
longer  act as trustees and do not have the responsibility of trustees
as they have-not been elected  for the current period .

If that can be assumed from the constitution.

will need to find out if there is a written constitution and if it
varies POR

Post by GAGS

further one must assume that the executive is not constituted and
should not be meeting as it has no powers to act .

Depends on what the constitution actually says!
The ex-officio people will still be in place if there hasn't been a
qualifying election.

Any thoughts

Is this scenario or a real case?

real case

other facts
agm and accounts for 07/08, 08/9, 09/10 still to be held

Charity reg withdrawn one year ago - there are issues with lack of
previous bank statements involving every body up to FSA that has
been holding up audit

county well aware and were informed in detail by others - county
and gilwell aware over a year ago

last dist exec - june 10 next which I could not attend as it was
changed with a weeks notice and clashed with holiday - september
meeting cancelled - awaiting new date .

Spoke to DS today - no further info and is awaiting info from
treasurer and chairman or Dc , they said would like an agm so that
they can resign .

It would seem to me that county exec should take control and sort
out , although they appear tyo have just sat on the side lines for
now .