Electronic Scout Badges

[metcarob]

Happy new Year Everyone!

I used to read this news group many years ago but in recent times I
only dip in and out. In my absence I have continued to develop the
Troop Management software I created and it is still severing us well
in our Troop. I have just put together the latest release and I
implemented almost of the outstanding items on my to do list for the
project. I am now turning my attention to implementing a new major
feature - Badge Management.

Currently the system does not have any badge management options and I
would like to add these. I will design a system that will be aware of
all the badges and the requirements. It would allow leaders to record
which members have completed which requirements and report on what
badges are due etc. etc.

The design will be independent of any particular badge system. This
way I can load cub badges, or Scout badges, or even Australian scout
badges. Creating a program independent data file for each badge system
could easily do this. Then I could simply point my software at the
data files and it can work with that badge system. As long as each
file had a unique name it will be easy to manage requirements in
multiple files. I imagine the files will be called something like:

UK_Scout_Badges_2010.xsd
UK_Cub_Badges_2010.xsd
IRL_Scout_Badges_1999.xsd

(The year would represent the launch date of that set of badges this
way uniqueness can be maintained.)

Essentially I want to create a data file format and data files for UK
badges that is separate and independent from my program. It could be
used in a host of different situations and would be a project in it’s
own right separate from my program.

With this in mind I would like to know if anyone here is able to help
me with some information.

1. Does this exist already exist in some form?
2. If this doesn’t exist is anyone interested in collaborating in
creating the xml schema and UK xsd documents
3. Are there any copyrights issues to consider? I am planning to
also include artwork etc. I would love it if the UK Scout badges were
licensed under creative commons. *See Note below

If anyone is interested in having a look at the Scout Management
program as it is now it is available from http://mys.metcarob.com. The
website needs an overhaul! The program is reliable and stable but
documentation is scarce and there are a few missing features so it is
not ready for non-technical users. I am working in the direction where
it will be but I am not there yet.

Anyway, happy New Year everyone,
Robert

Note on point 3:
The website scouts.org.uk has the following notice on it – Section 3.2
kind of suggests I am allowed to do this but this might be considered
‘adapting’ the content?

3. Intellectual Property

3.1. All copyright, trade marks, design rights, patents and other
intellectual property rights (registered and unregistered) in and on
the website and all content (including all applications) located on
the website shall remain vested in TSA or its licensors (which
includes other users).

3.2. You may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile,
reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available
to the public, or otherwise use website content in any way except for
your own personal, non-commercial use or non-commercial use directly
related to Scouting within the UK. You also agree not to adapt, alter
or create a derivative work from any website content except for your
own personal use. Any other use of the website content requires the
prior written permission of TSA.

3.3. The names, images and logos identifying TSA, Scout Shops, Unity
Insurance Services, Scout Activity Centres or third parties and their
products and services are subject to copyright, design rights and
trade marks of TSA and/or third parties. Nothing contained in these
terms shall be construed as conferring any licence or right to use any
trade mark, design right or copyright of TSA or any other third party.

[bill]

Post by metcarob
Happy new Year Everyone!
I used to read this news group many years ago but in recent times I
only dip in and out. In my absence I have continued to develop the
Troop Management software I created and it is still severing us well
in our Troop. I have just put together the latest release and I
implemented almost of the outstanding items on my to do list for the
project. I am now turning my attention to implementing a new major
feature - Badge Management.
Currently the system does not have any badge management options and I
would like to add these. I will design a system that will be aware of
all the badges and the requirements. It would allow leaders to record
which members have completed which requirements and report on what
badges are due etc. etc.
The design will be independent of any particular badge system. This
way I can load cub badges, or Scout badges, or even Australian scout
badges. Creating a program independent data file for each badge system
could easily do this. Then I could simply point my software at the
data files and it can work with that badge system. As long as each
file had a unique name it will be easy to manage requirements in
UK_Scout_Badges_2010.xsd
UK_Cub_Badges_2010.xsd
IRL_Scout_Badges_1999.xsd
(The year would represent the launch date of that set of badges this
way uniqueness can be maintained.)
Essentially I want to create a data file format and data files for UK
badges that is separate and independent from my program. It could be
used in a host of different situations and would be a project in it’s
own right separate from my program.
With this in mind I would like to know if anyone here is able to help
me with some information.
   1. Does this exist already exist in some form?
   2. If this doesn’t exist is anyone interested in collaborating in
creating the xml schema and UK xsd documents
   3. Are there any copyrights issues to consider? I am planning to
also include artwork etc. I would love it if the UK Scout badges were
licensed under creative commons. *See Note below
If anyone is interested in having a look at the Scout Management
program as it is now it is available fromhttp://mys.metcarob.com. The
website needs an overhaul! The program is reliable and stable but
documentation is scarce and there are a few missing features so it is
not ready for non-technical users. I am working in the direction where
it will be but I am not there yet.
Anyway, happy New Year everyone,
Robert
The website scouts.org.uk has the following notice on it – Section 3.2
kind of suggests I am allowed to do this but this might be considered
‘adapting’ the content?
3. Intellectual Property
3.1. All copyright, trade marks, design rights, patents and other
intellectual property rights (registered and unregistered) in and on
the website and all content (including all applications) located on
the website shall remain vested in TSA or its licensors (which
includes other users).
3.2. You may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile,
reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available
to the public, or otherwise use website content in any way except for
your own personal, non-commercial use or non-commercial use directly
related to Scouting within the UK. You also agree not to adapt, alter
or create a derivative work from any website content except for your
own personal use. Any other use of the website content requires the
prior written permission of TSA.
3.3. The names, images and logos identifying TSA, Scout Shops, Unity
Insurance Services, Scout Activity Centres or third parties and their
products and services are subject to copyright, design rights and
trade marks of TSA and/or third parties. Nothing contained in these
terms shall be construed as conferring any licence or right to use any
trade mark, design right or copyright of TSA or any other third party.

" Are there any copyrights issues to consider? I am planning to
also include artwork etc. I would love it if the UK Scout badges were
licensed under creative commons. *See Note below "

Clearly there are, as you're considering them.
However there doesn't seem to be a note below.

Do you mean "Am I going to infringe copyright"?
If so, my opinion is "yes".

OTOH, if I had drafted para 3.1, I would be VERY ashamed of myself.
It's what we IP Lawyers call "crap".
It suggests the whole website and applications thereon are in some way
vested in TSA. Like the fonts, for example.

Have you tried asking them for a licence to do whatever it is you're
going to do? Unless it's for money making purposes, I'd have thought
you'd be ok.
However they might then refer your question to whoever drafted para 3
etc, in which case you'd be better talking to the lamppost outside
your house.

[MatSav]

Post by bill

Post by metcarob
Happy new Year Everyone!
... I have continued to develop the
Troop Management software I created and it is still severing
us well
in our Troop. ....
Currently the system does not have any badge management
options and
I would like to add these. ...
Essentially I want to create a data file format and data
files for
UK badges that is separate and independent from my program.
It
could be used in a host of different situations and would be
a
project in it’s own right separate from my program.
With this in mind I would like to know if anyone here is able
to
help me with some information.
...
3. Are there any copyrights issues to consider? *See Note
below
...
The website scouts.org.uk has the following notice on it –
Section
3.2 kind of suggests I am allowed to do this but this might
be
considered ‘adapting’ the content?
3. Intellectual Property
3.1. All copyright, trade marks, design rights, patents and
other
intellectual property rights (registered and unregistered) in and on
the website and all content (including all applications)
located on
the website shall remain vested in TSA or its licensors
(which
includes other users)....

Clearly there are, as you're considering them.
However there doesn't seem to be a note below.
Do you mean "Am I going to infringe copyright"?
If so, my opinion is "yes".
OTOH, if I had drafted para 3.1, I would be VERY ashamed of
myself.
It's what we IP Lawyers call "crap".
It suggests the whole website and applications thereon are in
some way
vested in TSA. Like the fonts, for example...

Indeed. I am led to believe there is something known in legal
circles as the "Blue Pencil Rule", which is a precedent set by a
consumer protection case - that is, it is not possible to declare
just part of an agreement null and void - if there are any errors
and omissions, the whole agreement is void. Thus, having Clause
3.1 could invalidate the whole agreement, as it attempts to claim
rights which may not be rights of the SA to claim.

Post by bill
Have you tried asking them for a licence to do whatever it is
you're
going to do? Unless it's for money making purposes, I'd have
thought
you'd be ok.

Marc, also formerly of this parish, had an issue with TSA over
vinyl signs and the swoosh logo, if I remember correctly. I seem
to remember he was not granted permission to produce new signs
commercially, because the company he worked for could provide
them much cheaper than Scout Shops. I can see some parallels
here, and possible developments of the SA's MMS.

Post by bill
However they might then refer your question to whoever drafted
para 3
etc, in which case you'd be better talking to the lamppost
outside
your house.

Metrocarb could, perhaps, JFDI :-)

[Marc]

Post by MatSav

Post by bill

Post by metcarob
Happy new Year Everyone!
... I have continued to develop the
Troop Management software I created and it is still severing
us well
in our Troop. ....
Currently the system does not have any badge management
options and
I would like to add these. ...
Essentially I want to create a data file format and data
files for
UK badges that is separate and independent from my program.
It
could be used in a host of different situations and would be
a
project in it’s own right separate from my program.
With this in mind I would like to know if anyone here is able
to
help me with some information.
...
3. Are there any copyrights issues to consider? *See Note
below
...
The website scouts.org.uk has the following notice on it –
Section
3.2 kind of suggests I am allowed to do this but this might
be
considered ‘adapting’ the content?
3. Intellectual Property
3.1. All copyright, trade marks, design rights, patents and
other
intellectual property rights (registered and unregistered) in and on
the website and all content (including all applications)
located on
the website shall remain vested in TSA or its licensors
(which
includes other users)....

Clearly there are, as you're considering them.
However there doesn't seem to be a note below.
Do you mean "Am I going to infringe copyright"?
If so, my opinion is "yes".
OTOH, if I had drafted para 3.1, I would be VERY ashamed of
myself.
It's what we IP Lawyers call "crap".
It suggests the whole website and applications thereon are in
some way
vested in TSA. Like the fonts, for example...

Indeed. I am led to believe there is something known in legal
circles as the "Blue Pencil Rule", which is a precedent set by a
consumer protection case - that is, it is not possible to declare
just part of an agreement null and void - if there are any errors
and omissions, the whole agreement is void. Thus, having Clause
3.1 could invalidate the whole agreement, as it attempts to claim
rights which may not be rights of the SA to claim.

Post by bill
Have you tried asking them for a licence to do whatever it is
you're
going to do? Unless it's for money making purposes, I'd have
thought
you'd be ok.

Marc, also formerly of this parish,

Formerly?

Post by MatSav
had an issue with TSA over
vinyl signs and the swoosh logo, if I remember correctly. I seem
to remember he was not granted permission to produce new signs
commercially, because the company he worked for could provide
them much cheaper than Scout Shops. I can see some parallels
here, and possible developments of the SA's MMS.

Oh they could be reproduced ... but only to order for XXXtown Scout Group.

[Chris Atkinson]

Post by MatSav
Marc, also formerly of this parish, had an issue with TSA over
vinyl signs and the swoosh logo, if I remember correctly.

He's not the only one :-(
TSA tried to tell me that I couldn't use a fleur-de-lis logo on some
Scouting-related software I was selling. I had to point out to them that
it pre-dated TSA's Arrowhead Badge by many centuries, and was quite
firmly in the public domain.
They also wanted to know whereabouts it would be on the disc - that
posed a problem; I was tempted to suggest holding it up to the light ;^)
Chris A.

[metcarob]

On Jan 2, 6:27 pm, Chris Atkinson

Post by Chris Atkinson

Post by MatSav
vinyl signs and the swoosh logo, if I remember correctly.

He's not the only one :-(
TSA tried to tell me that I couldn't use a fleur-de-lis logo on some
Scouting-related software I was selling. I had to point out to them that
it pre-dated TSA's Arrowhead Badge by many centuries, and was quite
firmly in the public domain.
They also wanted to know whereabouts it would be on the disc - that
posed a problem; I was tempted to suggest holding it up to the light ;^)
Chris A.
--
Chris Atkinson
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.

Well I am intending to do this entirely for non-comercial use. The
files would be freely downloadable. The software that uses the files
would also be freely downloadable - at least the software that I
create would be, other people may download the badge files and do
other things but I could provide a licence.

I think I will draft an email to HQ and ask them for permission.

[Ewan Scott]

Post by metcarob
Well I am intending to do this entirely for non-comercial use. The
files would be freely downloadable. The software that uses the files
would also be freely downloadable - at least the software that I
create would be, other people may download the badge files and do
other things but I could provide a licence.
I think I will draft an email to HQ and ask them for permission.

You should note that The Dump is run for entirely non-commercial purposes,
for the benefit of Scouters, and its operators were threatened with legal
action and forced to Pay £500 to the SA for using out of Canadian copyright
publications.

Ewan Scott

[bill]

Post by Ewan Scott

Post by metcarob
Well I am intending to do this entirely for non-comercial use. The
files would be freely downloadable. The software that uses the files
would also be freely downloadable - at least the software that I
create would be, other people may download the badge files and do
other things but I could provide a licence.
I think I will draft an email to HQ and ask them for permission.

You should note that The Dump is run for entirely non-commercial purposes,
for the benefit of Scouters, and its operators were threatened with legal
action and forced to Pay 500 to the SA for using out of Canadian copyright
publications.
Ewan Scott

"forced to Pay the SA for using out of Canadian copyright
publications."

Although I deplore what happened, the point about Canadian copyright
has nothing to do with it. In fact I think copyright did subsist in
the books in Canada from my reading of the relevant Copyright
Conventions. However the point that seemed to be at issue was that
copyright did subsist in the UK, and people were infringing the
copyright here. I think a good copyright lawyer prepared to go the
whole hog could have prevented the £500 charge. "The whole hog" would
almost surely have involved the ECJ, and around £100k in fees.
So a bad deal got made, and is now a precedent. It will bite all sorts
of people in the future, I think, not necessarily to do with scouting

The issue in the case of badges is more complex, as there is no
copyright in the badges themselves,
"It is not an infringement of any copyright in a design document or
model recording or embodying a design for anything other than an
artistic work or a typeface to make an article to the design or to
copy an article made to the design."
I think that illustrating the badges cannot be copyright infringement,
whereas making a book available probably does.

[baggy]

There is (or was) an XSD (and associated XML and XSLT files) to manage
the badge requirements on ScoutBase - the content has now been moved
over to Scouts.org and the new Geomi CMS - so the semantic annotation
has almost certainly been lost.

Baggy