NAN assessment

[bill]

Me no understand. The permit is agnostic as to section so I can run a
Beaver sleepover or an Explorer "camp".
So WHY did a leader I was supervising get marked as a cub leader
running a cub camp on the basis that "special rules apply to cubs".

leader did an RA that was fine acc to assessor but was told he *must*
rope off the kitchen area as this is a requirement for cub camps.

To me this is cobblers of the highest water- either the RA was not up
to scratch and we should have noted cubs in kitchen area as a risk (we
did but merely noted need to keep them away from fire and preparation
areas by supervisors), or (based upon our assessment which took into
account large number of adults and small number of cubs) it wasn't a
risk that could ONLY be mitigated by a fence.

Equally we were failed as we had use of a building, and were using it
as food storage rather than a store tent.

I have, I think, lost the plot....


Bill

[MatSav]

Post by bill
Me no understand. The permit is agnostic as to section so I can run a
Beaver sleepover or an Explorer "camp".
So WHY did a leader I was supervising get marked as a cub
leader
running a cub camp on the basis that "special rules apply to
cubs".
leader did an RA that was fine acc to assessor but was told he
*must*
rope off the kitchen area as this is a requirement for cub
camps.
To me this is cobblers of the highest water- either the RA was
not up
to scratch and we should have noted cubs in kitchen area as a
risk (we
did but merely noted need to keep them away from fire and
preparation
areas by supervisors), or (based upon our assessment which took into
account large number of adults and small number of cubs) it
wasn't a
risk that could ONLY be mitigated by a fence.
Equally we were failed as we had use of a building, and were
using it
as food storage rather than a store tent.
I have, I think, lost the plot....

There's no "right of appeal" if one doesn't agree with a
recommendation from a Nights Away Adviser. However, one *is* at
liberty to re-apply as often as needed, in order to obtain a
Permit. Of course, as it's a National scheme, one is also at
liberty to apply for a Permit in a neighbouring District or
County, and hence be assessed by a different person.

As a Nights Away Adviser, I don't ask to see a *written* Risk
Assesment, but I *do* ask probing, open questions that won't have
a "yes/no" answer. Indeed, I've discovered many different ways of
doing the same task for a Nights Away event, and none of the
methods have been right or wrong - just different. Using a
building, not a stores tent, is a prime example of that. If the
Permit applicant can store food hygienically in a kitchen, the
same practice can be transferred to a tent, no? I have sometimes
recommended "best practice", as operated by one Permit holder,
and *suggested* that others do the same - but it's not compulsory
to do things "their way"!

[Daniel Smith]

Post by bill
Me no understand. The permit is agnostic as to section so I can run a
Beaver sleepover or an Explorer "camp".
So WHY did a leader I was supervising get marked as a cub leader
running a cub camp on the basis that "special rules apply to cubs".

AFAIK the only special rule is that the ratio is different for cubs.
That dosent mean that everything else should be the same. there are many
things that i do differently on cub camps to as i would do them on scout
camps, but this is based on risk assessment, common sense and good
advice from those with more experiance than myself (im still working
towards my permit but have been leader number 2 and 3 on many camps)

Post by bill
leader did an RA that was fine acc to assessor but was told he *must*
rope off the kitchen area as this is a requirement for cub camps.

codswallop! sounds like another one of those dratted local rules.

Somtimes it may be wise to rope off a kitchen tent but its certainly not
a rule, I for one tend to barricade the entrance with a large table that
normally contains a bowl of fruit and an urn of squash. Its possible to
simply walk round this, but it serves as a good demarcation point of
where cubs can go without a leaders permission

Post by bill
To me this is cobblers of the highest water- either the RA was not up
to scratch and we should have noted cubs in kitchen area as a risk (we
did but merely noted need to keep them away from fire and preparation
areas by supervisors), or (based upon our assessment which took into
account large number of adults and small number of cubs) it wasn't a
risk that could ONLY be mitigated by a fence.

Indeed.

Post by bill
Equally we were failed as we had use of a building, and were using it
as food storage rather than a store tent.

Assessor IMHO should have just asked loads of probing questions along
the what if you didn't have this building available etc line.

Post by bill
I have, I think, lost the plot....
Bill

[bill]

On 18/10/10 19:11, bill wrote:> Me no understand. The permit is agnostic as to section so I can run a

Post by bill
Beaver sleepover or an Explorer "camp".
So WHY did a leader I was supervising get marked as a cub leader
running a cub camp on the basis that "special rules apply to cubs".

AFAIK the only special rule is that the ratio is different for cubs.
That dosent mean that everything else should be the same. there are many
things that i do differently on cub camps to as i would do them on scout
camps, but this is based on risk assessment, common sense and good
advice from those with more experiance than myself (im still working
towards my permit but have been leader number 2 and 3 on many camps)> leader did an RA that was fine acc to assessor but was told he *must*

Post by bill
rope off the kitchen area as this is a requirement for cub camps.

codswallop! sounds like another one of those dratted local rules.
Somtimes it may be wise to rope off a kitchen tent but its certainly not
a rule, I for one tend to barricade the entrance with a large table that
normally contains a bowl of fruit and an urn of squash. Its possible to
simply walk round this, but it serves as a good demarcation point of
where cubs can go without a leaders permission

Post by bill
To me this is cobblers of the highest water- either the RA was not up
to scratch and we should have noted cubs in kitchen area as a risk (we
did but merely noted need to keep them away from fire and preparation
areas by supervisors), or (based upon our assessment which took into
account large number of adults and small number of cubs) it wasn't a
risk that could ONLY be mitigated by a fence.

Indeed.

Post by bill
Equally we were failed as we had use of a building, and were using it
as food storage rather than a store tent.

Assessor IMHO should have just asked loads of probing questions along
the what if you didn't have this building available etc line.

Post by bill
I have, I think, lost the plot....
Bill- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks, both

The "candidate" had just come back from a course where he was told it
was "horses for courses". He'd taken my advice which was promptly
gainsayed by the assesor (who's a lovely guy). The Assessor seemed to
be working from the days when we had absolute rules.
I remember fondly hearing of scouting accidents where the leader could
hide behind "that's what the book said to do" in years gone by.
I thought the whole reason for RAs (all right, I know of many reasonsd
for them!) was to allow the action taken to be fit for purpose not
merely "what the book says".

[Ewan Scott]

The greater part of NA Assessors are not qualified in food hygiene,
therefore their judgment is often based on misinformation and received
wisdom.

It is well nigh impossible for most people to run a camp kitchen that meets
current food hygiene standards at every level. We can only do our best to be
as hygienic as is possible under the circumstances.

We have a food tent. The last couple of camps we moved the food out of the
food tent and into an empty mess tent, because the compact space of the food
tent combined with it's vinyl roof meant that the temperature inside the
tent soared above the ambient temperature. The airy mess tent was much
cooler.

Store food off the ground - makes sense, but if you have your food in sealed
containers, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference whether it is stored
on the ground or on a table, as can be witnessed by the squirrel teeth marks
on our cool boxes!

If your campers have taken the best precautions that they possibly can, are
serving proper food and are able to clean dishes properly after each meal,
and have a means of washing hands constantly, then they won't be too far
away.

One tip for centralised catering, pre-cook your meals, freeze them and store
them in good quality cool boxes. If you pack them correctly you can keep
fresh foods such as bacon, sausage, butter, and milk chilled for days, and
unless we have a really hot summer, your last set of meals will still be
frozen on the fourth day... yes, it is cheating, but it's much safer than
keeping raw chicken in a coolbox!

(Oh, I am qualified to say the above, and my wife is too)

Ewan Scott

[MatSav]

Post by Ewan Scott
...
One tip for centralised catering, pre-cook your meals, freeze
them and store them in good quality cool boxes. If you pack
them correctly you can keep fresh foods such as bacon, sausage,
butter, and milk chilled for days, ...

In addition, freeze some of your poly-bottles of milk as well,
and use them as your ice packs. Sainsbury's now selll milk bags,
which may be even better for this purpose, if they can be frozen
without splitting.

By "good quality", I don't think Ewan means the type bought in
supermarkets for under a tenner - you probably need something
more like a Coleman Cooler.

[SBR]

Post by MatSav
In addition, freeze some of your poly-bottles of milk as well,

We tried making "Milk cubes" using an ice cube try, the idea ws that you
took one for each cuppa. It didn't work.

<snip>

Post by MatSav
By "good quality", I don't think Ewan means the type bought in
supermarkets for under a tenner - you probably need something more like a
Coleman Cooler.

We use two types. A cheapo argos ones, and Coleman? ones which have a lock
down lid and keeps stuff cold for days.

For weekend camps we put breakfast, milk and whatever in a cheapo, and same
again in a dear one, so on both days we have stuff just ready for use.

I also freeze pre-cut chicken pieces for curry on Saturday night. It saves
ages.

[SBR]

Post by Ewan Scott
One tip for centralised catering, pre-cook your meals, freeze them and
store them in good quality cool boxes. If you pack them correctly you can
keep fresh foods such as bacon, sausage, butter, and milk chilled for
days, and unless we have a really hot summer, your last set of meals will
still be frozen on the fourth day... yes, it is cheating, but it's much
safer than keeping raw chicken in a coolbox!

Yep, so long as it stays below 4 degrees, its chiiled IIRC.

Another good one is to freeze milk before camp, it stays chilled for days.

[SBR]

Post by bill
The "candidate" had just come back from a course where he was told it
was "horses for courses". He'd taken my advice which was promptly
gainsayed by the assesor (who's a lovely guy). The Assessor seemed to
be working from the days when we had absolute rules.

The rules have always been flexible. Its the people that were supposed to be
overseeing them that were not.

Post by bill
I remember fondly hearing of scouting accidents where the leader could
hide behind "that's what the book said to do" in years gone by.

And normally it said no such thing.

[Graham Drabble]

Post by bill
leader did an RA that was fine acc to assessor but was told he
*must* rope off the kitchen area as this is a requirement for cub
camps.
To me this is cobblers of the highest water- either the RA was not
up to scratch and we should have noted cubs in kitchen area as a
risk (we did but merely noted need to keep them away from fire and
preparation areas by supervisors), or (based upon our assessment
which took into account large number of adults and small number of
cubs) it wasn't a risk that could ONLY be mitigated by a fence.

For this part I totally agree with you.

Post by bill
Equally we were failed as we had use of a building, and were using
it as food storage rather than a store tent.

That part I can sort of understand assuming you were looking for a
campsite permit rather than an indoor one. The reason for having an
assessed camp is to check that the candidate is capable of running the
camp properly. I'm not sure how the assessor can check how they will
store food in a tent (which is far more challenging than when you have
a building) without seeing it. If we allow them to just ask questions
then what's the point of an assessed camp in the first place?

On a related note, it's always surprised me that we don't have summer /
winter permits. It seems strange that someone can go on a couple of
summer weekends, run a summer weekend camp and then be qualified to
camp for a week in February!

[Neil Williams]

Post by Graham Drabble
On a related note, it's always surprised me that we don't have summer /
winter permits. It seems strange that someone can go on a couple of
summer weekends, run a summer weekend camp and then be qualified to
camp for a week in February!

Is there really that much difference, bar the risk of things freezing
and the need to keep warm?

I'm not convinced it's anything like winter mountaineering, where the
skills required can be very different and non-obvious.

Neil

[SBR]

Post by Graham Drabble
That part I can sort of understand assuming you were looking for a
campsite permit rather than an indoor one. The reason for having an
assessed camp is to check that the candidate is capable of running the
camp properly. I'm not sure how the assessor can check how they will

The trouble is its like a driving test. As soon a you have passed you ignore
it and do your own thing.

At summer camp we have an HQ tent which is for cooking, storing food and
kit, and leaders eating. Just like my Kitchen at home. Or a caravan. So long
as you don't keep bacon and meths in the same cardboard box you will be
fine!

Seriously, our kit stays in large plastic moving crates along one side of
the tent under a couple of Gopak tables. Food is stored on them in various
cool boxes, wooden bread boxes, mesh fruit and veg racks, and just palin
plastic boxes for tins and packets. We have another couple of tables for
preparing food, cooking on washing up, and eating on, just like at home.

[SBR]

Post by bill
I have, I think, lost the plot....

No you havn't.

Its the new breed of "leaders" who think that by taking the most ludicrous
over teh top "saftey precautins" they are doing the bast for the kids.

They are not.